insult at work

The original poster Val , is talking about govt. lab jobs in Australia.
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

"drocillo" dixit:

> because I am an immigrant, and immigrants are second-rate citizens. He
> knew that I had no other choice (my non-renewable contract expires in
> half a year), and I would most likely take this position.

Take the job while you apply for a green card. When you get one, move on.

Marcos
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

this is for Marcos Martinez-Sancho . you got to go and visit an
academic environment once before making a statement like that. because
what you call cheap labor is whats keeping higher education alive in
US. visit any enginerring or sciences school in US or Canada and you
will see 60% of grad students are either indians or chinese. dont give
out suggestions if you dont know the whole story.
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

dixit:

> Why are you sticking to academia? I presume the scenario is taking
> place in academia. With a Phd and 7 years of experience you can pick
> and choose buddy.

Jobs in academia tend to be safer than those in the private sector.
Nowadays, people working for private companies know that past the peak of
the business cycle, the chances of being laid off are high.

Besides, jobs in academia have a very high entry-barrier (a Phd) which
somehow protect you against cheap labor (eg, Indians).

Marcos
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

Marcos Martinez-Sancho wrote:
> dixit:
>
>
>>Why are you sticking to academia? I presume the scenario is taking
>>place in academia. With a Phd and 7 years of experience you can pick
>>and choose buddy.
>
>
> Jobs in academia tend to be safer than those in the private sector.

Ha! I taught at a post-secondary institution for several years and that
job was far more stressful than when I was in industry. In addition,
the brand of office politics that was played there was far cheaper than
other places I was at.

On top of that, most academic positions now are short-term, lower-paid,
and contracted. I hardly call that "safe".

Academia? No, thanks.

> Nowadays, people working for private companies know that past the peak of
> the business cycle, the chances of being laid off are high.

Believe me, they're no better in academic institutions that are run on
"business principles". People can get canned for the dumbest of
reasons, such as not being popular with the department head, or making
the mistake of being full-time support staff when the institution wants
to hire contract workers to replace them.

>
> Besides, jobs in academia have a very high entry-barrier (a Phd) which
> somehow protect you against cheap labor (eg, Indians).

It depends where. At junior colleges and tech schools, the educational
requirements are often lower. I applied at some places where I would
have been better-educated than whoever would have become my boss.

>
> Marcos
>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, drocillo wrote:

>
> Today I received an email from my supervisor. He said that a permanent
> position was advertised, and encouraged me to apply.

Did you apply? He suggested this.

I looked at the
> position's duties -- this was an exact description of the projects I am
> doing now.

It may be that this is the best that they can do for you, for now. I would
make the application (as they recommended).

The only problem with the position was that it was at a
> level lower than I expected.

Maybe they want to see further evidence that you will be a "team player".

It was at a level to which fresh PhD
> graduates with zero years of experience get hired. And I have over 7
> years of post-PhD work experience with publications. I went to my
> supervisor's boss, and asked him if this was the permanent position
> about creation of which he/they talked over the past year. He said yes.
> I told him I was hoping for a position of a higher level, and gave him
> argumented reasons why I was suitable (one of the reasons was that I
> was already doing the job of a higher level duty).

If it is a permanent slot, that is worth much more, in my eyes, than a
higher paid temp slot.

His reply was of the
> kind "take it or leave". He told me that he was very much hoping that I
> would be applying for this position.

You should apply for the position and worry about a promotion later.

I felt disappointed. They do it
> because I am an immigrant, and immigrants are second-rate citizens.

Yep. It happens all over the world. Sometimes third rate. Women often get
second rate job offers.

He
> knew that I had no other choice (my non-renewable contract expires in
> half a year), and I would most likely take this position.

Please, apply for the position.

> After this conversation, I went to my administrative boss. I did not
> tell him about this position. He told me that it was found in the last
> interview for a similar position (when I was unsuccessful) that I was
> suitable for a position of a higher level, and that my supervisors all
> around me had excellent opinion about my work. My administrative boss
> said that I should expect at least two positions advertised soon (in
> few months ?) for which I would be suitable and for which I should
> apply, and that I should not worry.

Apply for all positions that you could fill. See what happens.

I asked him to elaborate which
> senior administrator was of opinion that I was suitable for a higher
> level position which they would create for me, and he named this boss
> whom I mentioned above. Something fishy was going on. The same senior
> administrator is ascribed two different opinions. I have booked an
> appointment with the superior of my administrative boss. I would like
> to argue my case for a higher-level position. However, all of my
> experience shows that I have never won an arguement with a senior
> employer.

I have not, either.

So I do not expect much. I better keep quiet, and then they
> will not take away this lower-level job, and let me keep my present
> contract employment.



> And here are the assorted thoughts. The only problem with applying for
> a position of a lower level is that the administrators will
> "pigeonhole" me as a low-level technician.

Do you want to be unemployed again?

I will never be able to
> receive a promotion to a senior scientist position within this
> organisation.

If you expect magic, gifts, and the midas touch, then you may get none of
it.

My year-old decision to take up an offer to do numerical
> modelling came to bite me now. My performance over the past year was
> lacklustre because doing modelling was against of my inclination. Also,
> I suspect that I came agressively-initiative across of my supervisor
> who did not want a competition from me, so he thought to give me a
> lower position.

Apply for all positions that are possible. See what they do. If you get
solid offers, ask them to let you think about it for a few days (you can
ask here on src again what to do).

> \/
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

They are offering you a permanent job ...... better apply , you have
no other options except to stir things up and get laid off. At your
age, and situation you will have fewer and fewer options.
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

When you are in a position of weakness, they will take advantage. The
only way you can win is to job jump up to another position. Since you
are stuck in Oz, in a govt job., you cannot do that.
Play the game, play the game for the long term. Try to find
other outlets and interests in your life. Much better to be
collecting a pension, and doing something related to your personal
interests, then being out on the street in this dog eat dog world.
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, Aging_Recycled_Scientist wrote:

> They are offering you a permanent job ...... better apply , you have
> no other options except to stir things up and get laid off. At your
> age, and situation you will have fewer and fewer options.
>
>

You're right. Every day he gets older, the less options he has in front of
him. Sometimes you have to take the best options fate hands to you instead
of worry that what you want is not what is being offered. He has to look
out the window of where he is working and ask whether he would like to
stay in what is, at least from my perspective, a non-ideal job or be out
on the street and on the dole again or figure out what to do if he wants a
better life doing something else that he hasn't the faintest idea what it
could be. I've had to make some big "adjustments" in life in the last
decade, too.
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

Straydog wrote:

> Maybe its a lower position than you wanted, but if they are really
> "pushing" then it certainly sounds like they want to get you into the
> system

Yes, they indeed want to get me into the system. The matter is that
they cannot give me to do the longer-term projects while I am a
temporary employee. If I am temporary, I can leave either voluntary or
involuntary, and thus they cannot rely on my finishing the project at
all.

But the question is in _what_ capacity they want me to be there. I
recall a British (fiction) story where a low-level guy employed at an
insurance company got an official invitation to the Royal hunting. He
was talking about it to colleagues, and they now treated him with
respect. He started to talk with confidence to his boss who was a
regular at those huntings. Finally, the hunting day came. The guy went
to the meeting place appointed to him, but he found no horse, no rifle
and for that matter no people at all. He wondered how he was going to
hunt foxes. He heard the approaching voices of the barking dogs which
were penning the game, the sound of horns and of the horses beating
hooves. Finally, it downed on him that the game was _him_. Nowhere to
run.

OK, enough of negativity, let's go to the positive. In fact, this
"offer" of a position I should consider as a triumph of my strategy. I
worked hard to get arranged a position, and I got it (nowithstanding
the level). One year ago, the rumours started that our department would
be decapitated and dissolved. I approached a couple of heads of
deparments and told them I could solve some of their problems by
application of the technique I developed in my current work. Indeed,
few months later the head of our group was dismissed. One of the guys I
talked with came to me and said that he wanted me to work for him, and
a permanent position could be organised for me later. He requested to
transfer me into his department, but his request was rebuffed by my
boss' boss who apparently had his own opinion on how to utilize my
skills. Nevertheless, he permitted the head of another department to
get me temporarily into the other head's project.

Now this head (for whom I was doing numerical modelling lately)
informed me that a position was advertised "for me". The position was
of a lower level than I hoped. Also, it was of a lower level than my
boss' boss wanted to get me in. So on Monday, I will go and see my
boss' boss, and inform him that the other senior administrator arranged
a position for me (in fact, this position was not created anew; this
position is just a replacement of a technician who retired recently). I
have a suspiction that these two senior administrators belong to two
different political fractions at workplace; and my boss' boss seems to
me to have more of political and financial clout than the other senior
administrator. Thus, my boss' boss was able to talk over the past year
that a new position of a higher level would be created "for me". In
fact, this was what my boss repeated to me just a few days ago. In the
conversation next Monday, I am prepared to learn that my boss' boss
will take the side of the other senior administrator and would not
arrange a new position of a hgher level within one of _his_
departments. So that I am not going to complain; I will just inform.

\/
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

see below...

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006, drocillo wrote:

> Straydog wrote:
>
>> Maybe its a lower position than you wanted, but if they are really
>> "pushing" then it certainly sounds like they want to get you into the
>> system
>
> Yes, they indeed want to get me into the system. The matter is that
> they cannot give me to do the longer-term projects while I am a
> temporary employee. If I am temporary, I can leave either voluntary or
> involuntary, and thus they cannot rely on my finishing the project at
> all.
>
> But the question is in _what_ capacity they want me to be there. I
> recall a British (fiction) story where a low-level guy employed at an
> insurance company got an official invitation to the Royal hunting. He
> was talking about it to colleagues, and they now treated him with
> respect. He started to talk with confidence to his boss who was a
> regular at those huntings. Finally, the hunting day came. The guy went
> to the meeting place appointed to him, but he found no horse, no rifle
> and for that matter no people at all. He wondered how he was going to
> hunt foxes. He heard the approaching voices of the barking dogs which
> were penning the game, the sound of horns and of the horses beating
> hooves. Finally, it downed on him that the game was _him_. Nowhere to
> run.
>
> OK, enough of negativity, let's go to the positive. In fact, this
> "offer" of a position I should consider as a triumph of my strategy. I
> worked hard to get arranged a position, and I got it (nowithstanding
> the level). One year ago, the rumours started that our department would
> be decapitated and dissolved. I approached a couple of heads of
> deparments and told them I could solve some of their problems by
> application of the technique I developed in my current work. Indeed,
> few months later the head of our group was dismissed. One of the guys I
> talked with came to me and said that he wanted me to work for him, and
> a permanent position could be organised for me later. He requested to
> transfer me into his department, but his request was rebuffed by my
> boss' boss who apparently had his own opinion on how to utilize my
> skills. Nevertheless, he permitted the head of another department to
> get me temporarily into the other head's project.

This all indicates that more than one person likes you more (or dislikes
you less) than other possibilities.

> Now this head (for whom I was doing numerical modelling lately)
> informed me that a position was advertised "for me". The position was
> of a lower level than I hoped. Also, it was of a lower level than my
> boss' boss wanted to get me in. So on Monday, I will go and see my
> boss' boss, and inform him that the other senior administrator arranged
> a position for me (in fact, this position was not created anew; this
> position is just a replacement of a technician who retired recently).

Sometimes there is a "Table of Organization" and they can't _add_
positions, only convert positions and/or re-assign existing positions.
It is also possible that they have to stay within a budget for salaries
that can't be changed and if someone wants to pay someone a salary
increase, then someone else must get a salary decrease and that has to
show up in a lower level.

I
> have a suspiction that these two senior administrators belong to two
> different political fractions at workplace;

I would suspect the same.

and my boss' boss seems to
> me to have more of political and financial clout than the other senior
> administrator. Thus, my boss' boss was able to talk over the past year
> that a new position of a higher level would be created "for me". In
> fact, this was what my boss repeated to me just a few days ago. In the
> conversation next Monday, I am prepared to learn that my boss' boss
> will take the side of the other senior administrator and would not
> arrange a new position of a hgher level within one of _his_
> departments. So that I am not going to complain; I will just inform.

Well, one thing you can do is "share" with him any information about
conversations and then interject any "concerns" you might have and
"invite" him to" comment in any way he sees fit" that would help you
understand "what your future rule might be be, first, in
the interests of the organization [you want to appear to be in
defference to him], and second, in your long term career interests." I
wrote that carefully, and hope you get my drift.

> \/
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

Straydog wrote:

> Sometimes there is a "Table of Organization" and they can't _add_
> positions, only convert positions and/or re-assign existing positions.
> It is also possible that they have to stay within a budget for salaries
> that can't be changed and if someone wants to pay someone a salary
> increase, then someone else must get a salary decrease and that has to
> show up in a lower level.


Well, here are the latest happenings. Two weeks have passed since I was
told about the lower-level position created for me in my govt lab. I
have written and submitted my application for the job.

First of all, even if it is a lower-level position, it is still a
victory for me and a triumph of my strategy. I worked hard in the past
year or two to impress the bosses, did all the right body movements,
and finally they decided that I was worthy of being introduced into the
system.

I had negative experience with the previous employers, and this was why
I automatically assumed that they wanted to screw me, when the bosses
announced to me that they wanted me to apply for a low-level position.
Since then, I calmed down, spoke to a number of people and watched the
bosses' attitudes towards me, and then I came to the opinion that their
real intention was to get me into the ranks of the permanent employees.
It was easiest to create a low-level position and get me into it. It
would be an altogether different matter of promotion of me to a
higher-level position. Their attention span was short, so they did not
think that I could apply for other higher-level positions once I get
this lower-level position. And yes, I might apply for the higher-level
position once the suitable ones (presumably organised by another
administrator) will become available. I presume the reaction of the
boss to the fact that I am applying to the new positions will be
normal.

I now observe a number of changes which is happening in my govt lab.
The administrators introduced a new organisational structure. It used
to be that administrative heads were also project managers and thus
they held the most of resources in their hands. Now, a matrix structure
is introduced. Almost all of the "Senior Scientists" are appointed to
be the project managers. The "Scientists" (one rung lower) have part of
their scientific duties removed, and are added some administrative
(managerial ?) duties. The "Junior Scientists" (this is the level of
the position which I am occupying now and which they wanted me to apply
for) have no administrative (or managerial) duties and will not have
any according to the new schedule. The management announced to us that
the government cut the amount of money which specifically went for
staff salaries. The management even want to increase the number of
staff, and they will pay the salary to them from "soft money". (They
will always have "soft money", so that they can afford to have the new
staff on permanent contracts.) So, this could be the explanation: the
management experiences the dearth of money for staff salaries (because
these are the "soft money" coming from the lab and not from the
government), and this is why they hire people at the lower levels than
before. From the other side, they are saying to the present staff on
the higher-level positions that their positions is high enough and they
should not expect a promotion.

Well, anyway, there is one remarkable thing with my current employment
situation (and the future position will be just a continuation of this
job). The boss actually made me a part of the core processes (projects)
happening in his department. He assigned me a project of importance to
him, and he spends an hour or two per week giving me instructions and
feedback on my performance. This are the great news ! In all of my
previous employments, the employers did not have time to talk to me and
never bothered to ask me on the progress of my work. Understandably,
the projects which they gave to me were of a low importance to them. I
felt abandoned, and questioned my worth as a scientist. I craved to be
introduced into the "core" projects, but no employer bothered about it.
Now, my boss listens attentively to my reports on my results, reads my
manuscripts, gives a feedback, and I get publications ! Publications is
the "hard currency" when I will come to the management and ask for
promotion. So, I might well work with this boss in this low-level
position for a couple of years, and then move on to a position of a
higher level, maybe in a different department !

I have not got this new job yet, though. Anything could happen.

\/
 >> Stay informed about: insult at work 

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, drocillo wrote:

>
> Straydog wrote:
>
>> Sometimes there is a "Table of Organization" and they can't _add_
>> positions, only convert positions and/or re-assign existing positions.
>> It is also possible that they have to stay within a budget for salaries
>> that can't be changed and if someone wants to pay someone a salary
>> increase, then someone else must get a salary decrease and that has to
>> show up in a lower level.
>
>
> Well, here are the latest happenings. Two weeks have passed since I was
> told about the lower-level position created for me in my govt lab. I
> have written and submitted my application for the job.
>
> First of all, even if it is a lower-level position, it is still a
> victory for me and a triumph of my strategy. I worked hard in the past
> year or two to impress the bosses, did all the right body movements,
> and finally they decided that I was worthy of being introduced into the
> system.

Nah, don't say nice things, yet. It could all fall through then you have
to take back the nice things you said. Wait.

> I had negative experience with the previous employers, and this was why
> I automatically assumed that they wanted to screw me,

They all want to screw you, just you want the place where you get screwed
the least.

when the bosses
> announced to me that they wanted me to apply for a low-level position.
> Since then, I calmed down, spoke to a number of people and watched the
> bosses' attitudes towards me, and then I came to the opinion that their
> real intention was to get me into the ranks of the permanent employees.
> It was easiest to create a low-level position and get me into it. It
> would be an altogether different matter of promotion of me to a
> higher-level position. Their attention span was short, so they did not
> think that I could apply for other higher-level positions once I get
> this lower-level position. And yes, I might apply for the higher-level
> position once the suitable ones (presumably organised by another
> administrator) will become available. I presume the reaction of the
> boss to the fact that I am applying to the new positions will be
> normal.

OK

> I now observe a number of changes which is happening in my govt lab.
> The administrators introduced a new organisational structure. It used
> to be that administrative heads were also project managers and thus
> they held the most of resources in their hands. Now, a matrix structure
> is introduced. Almost all of the "Senior Scientists" are appointed to
> be the project managers.

So, if a project gets terminated, then the original permanent employee
gets termnated, too? Just like grants in the USA (and wherever they have
grants)

The "Scientists" (one rung lower) have part of
> their scientific duties removed, and are added some administrative
> (managerial ?) duties.

This is another way to get rid of people; lots of people hate
administrative duties. Makes them resign.

The "Junior Scientists" (this is the level of
> the position which I am occupying now and which they wanted me to apply
> for) have no administrative (or managerial) duties and will not have
> any according to the new schedule. The management announced to us that
> the government cut the amount of money which specifically went for
> staff salaries.

Was this in the newspapers? How much cut?

The management even want to increase the number of
> staff, and they will pay the salary to them from "soft money".

Grants. How to put pressure on people to quit, or hang themselves with
their own rope.

(They
> will always have "soft money", so that they can afford to have the new
> staff on permanent contracts.) So, this could be the explanation: the
> management experiences the dearth of money for staff salaries (because
> these are the "soft money" coming from the lab and not from the
> government), and this is why they hire people at the lower levels than
> before.

And, where is this soft money to come from? If it is not grants?

From the other side, they are saying to the present staff on
> the higher-level positions that their positions is high enough and they
> should not expect a promotion.
>
> Well, anyway, there is one remarkable thing with my current employment
> situation (and the future position will be just a continuation of this
> job). The boss actually made me a part of the core processes (projects)
> happening in his department. He assigned me a project of importance to
> him, and he spends an hour or two per week giving me instructions and
> feedback on my performance. This are the great news ! In all of my
> previous employments, the employers did not have time to talk to me and
> never bothered to ask me on the progress of my work.

Smile at him, and pray that you are not being "set up" for a fall.

Understandably,
> the projects which they gave to me were of a low importance to them. I
> felt abandoned, and questioned my worth as a scientist. I craved to be
> introduced into the "core" projects, but no employer bothered about it.
> Now, my boss listens attentively to my reports on my results, reads my
> manuscripts, gives a feedback, and I get publications ! Publications is
> the "hard currency" when I will come to the management and ask for
> promotion. So, I might well work with this boss in this low-level
> position for a couple of years, and then move on to a position of a
> higher level, maybe in a different department !

Smile, and wait for the publications to show your name on the author list.

> I have not got this new job yet, though. Anything could happen.

Pray. And, sweat.

> \/
>
>
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